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APPLIANCES, LARGE(energy is the overriding issue for all appliances)
Heating and Furnace (on Disk 5 Track 12 the group agrees not to get bogged-down in this sub-category - it is too big)
Fuel source
Indoor air quality
Energy efficiency
Washers & Dryers, Ranges, Refrigerators
Water efficiency
Energy efficiency
Money savings (because of water and energy efficiency)
SS: If we can show customers what the long-term money savings are - we can get people to buy because of the cost-savings.
(discussion of Demonstrating Money Savings to customers, and the larger issue of energy:)
We just have to do it the right way without guessing and - figuring out the rates in not simple. We could figure out the average energy cost in each zip code and allow the customer to override the average if they have better information. If it is off a little, the customer will still go for it because the savings are dramatic, even if the estimate is off a little. The estimate, however, needs to be per bulb (for light bulbs) rather than percentages.
LC: SCS said that if we sell Green Energy on the website - we will not work with you because:
| 1. | They lie - the claims are not true |
| 2. | You are either on the grid or off. With Clean & Green, you are not really getting energy from the green source. JG: However, if you buy from a company who buys from a windmill - you are not getting that actual energy - but you are supporting sustainable energy. If everyone did that, there wouldn't be any nuclear energy because no one would be buying it. |
| 3. | Because certain alternative energy sources are intermittent - you need coal plants to make up for the down time and brown outs. JG: Believes that this argument is unfounded. LC: Suggests that Stan and John debate this and other issues (like hemp) tonight. SS: For Green Power we need to speak to David Freeman - the head of the DWP in Los Angeles. He is running for the State Assembly. He was the head of the Tennessee Valley Authority, shut down a lot of nuclear power plants. MM: Marc does not think highly of this guy. |
LC: We, as an advisory committee, don't have to agree on an answer to Green Energy right now but we do have to agree within a month and come up with a process for doing so.
SS: Or you need people you trust to act as advisors on a particular issue (like green energy).
LC: Maybe we should come up with a short list.
JG: He ended-up buying a Magic Chef which was not nearly as energy efficient as the Sun Frost which we sell but it is 31% more efficient than standard brands and about 1/8th of the price of the SunFrost. Will we sell both?
LC: Yes- as long as the money savings are significant, we will give people the choice. (MM, CG and LMH agree )
JG: In the case of the Sun Frost vs. Magic Chef, however, the Sun Frost did not show savings over time.
LC: SCS has a sophisticated database of every appliance and every specific energy requirement for thousands of appliances
LC: Are we going to go way off the beaten track and give people a non-electric or gas refrigerator?
SS: In these product categories, we are trying to define what is green - not what isn't green
MM We are trying to define what the 4th axis is for the consumer in each category (like a refrigerator).
SS: Are consumer concerned about the manufacturing process?
MM/JG: Not for appliances - it is just energy efficiency for now.
LMH: What about the versions and the choices - side by side, ice maker, etc.
MM/LC: We have to offer those options, just like a major retailer would.
JG/LC: Often, a brand will have only ONE energy efficient model - like Magic Chef. The salesman actually tried to talk John OUT of buying the efficient model.
MM: Exactly - they don't know how to sell this stuff.
LC: There is a huge fight between manufacturers who are making these products - and the distributors who do not know how to sell these products. Distributors were so angry when they heard a rumor that Maytag (who had spent millions on R&D for efficient products) was going to sell their green appliances on line that they returned 1/4 of Maytag orders to distributors in protest. Maytag dropped their plans immediately.
We want to approach manufacturers to offer a solution. They would sell the green model through Green Home as a first foray into the marketplace and see how it goes - there is an angle here somewhere that we need to develop.
MM: We will be able to showcase these products in the right context so it won't get lost in a jumble of stuff at The Good Guys.
LMH: What happens after the customer orders a Magic Chef? Does Green Home put an order in to Magic Chef and they drop ship it?
LC: We need a "Service Master". We need to have relationships not just with the manufacturers but with nation-wide appliance installation experts. We may have to send them to green camp to learn how to install the appliances correctly.
JG: The installation is not a problem for a fridge. The local gas company does it for gas appliances. We will need a distributor. We will probably have to pay a service charge for installation but it is not rocket science installation.
LC: (reviews the large appliances subcategories and criteria)
CG: Wants to add manufacturing process - even if it is a lower priority in the large appliance category.
SS: Wants to add quality in every category. There are degrees of quality. She is willing to sacrifice SOME quality in that she doesn't care if the paper towels fall apart
MM: Wants to add (in all categories) durability.
LC: The price, quality, availability has to be competitive - these should be given.
SS: But some people want the best - others are willing to sacrifice some quality for some other advantage.
JG: With appliances, specifically gas ranges, the choices were things like chrome or black, self-cleaning, pilot or not, there are no qualitative distinctions.
APPLIANCES, SMALL
Air Filters
Asthma
Allergy
JG: (referring to a debate he had with Lawrence the night before about whether or not air filters are green) Air filters are not a solution to an environmental problem. They treat the symptom, are narcissistic, because they use energy, it is a feel-good device, etc.
MM: On the other hand, for those who rely on them - if they don't use them and get lung cancer - doesn't medical care use a lot of energy?
JG: You'd have to cause a lot of cancer
Energy Efficiency
What the filters are made of
How to dispose of the filters
The frequency with which you have to change the filters
Effectiveness
LC: This is important in terms of air filters - there is a lot of BS in the way claims are made. MM: It is up to us to sort it out because the good ones do work.
Battery Chargers
JG: The Renew alkaline charger was a scam - they only re-charged their batteries, they claimed you could get 60 re-charges on an alkaline battery but only the first six did any good, etc. There are product quality issues:
Recycleable (for battery chargers)
NiCads - even though they are re-chargeable will eventually have to be disposed of. Cadmium is a hazardous metal.
JG: GreenCo. Used to carry millenium batteries and chargers because they had a lifetime guarantee. If it ever failed to re-charge, they would take them back and recycle them and send you a new battery.
(Discussion of Green Home offering to recycle items that cannot be recycled in all areas. Does it so much energy to transport these items that it would be better to throw them away? SS: But if the mail carrier is going there anyway… JG: It is an incremental argument… MM: At some point they make an extra trip, the vehicle carries more weight… SS: She is not convinced when it is the post office)
LC: There are a lot of items that people (himself included) do not know what to do with - like the bag that the New York Times comes in.
JG: Some of the things that can be recycled probably are not good to recycle - like vinyl recycling which produces dioxin.
LC: We may want to offer answers to the question "what do I do with this?" on the site.
CG: Or we could link to other sites that already to that like 1-800-Clean-Up.
LC: Those people are supported by Circle-K, Microsoft, Union 76, Ford.
CG: But they are disseminating the information (SS, LC, JG and LMH agree that we will have to deal with people like this)
LC: Our competition is partnering with Co-Op America to "certify" their products.
JG: Co-Op America (The Green Pages) has NO criteria other than that the group that is listed pays dues.
- Lunch Break -
(Lunch conversation about stripping woodwork in LMH's house in 1978, Linda Brown of Scientific Certification Systems arrives, introductions for Linda)
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